John C Lilly on Alternate realities, Psychedelics, Men, Women and God….

Very edited extract of Interview with John C Lilly

John Cunningham Lilly (January 6, 1915 – September 30, 2001) was an American physician, neuroscientistpsychoanalyst,psychonaut, philosopher, writer and inventor.

He was a researcher of the nature of consciousness using mainly isolation tanks,[1] dolphin communication, and psychedelic drugs, sometimes in combination ~ Wikipedia

Source for following text ~

In your book The Scientist you wrote, “If we can each experience at least the lower levels of satori, there is hope that we won’t blow up the planet or otherwise eliminate life as we know it.” Are altered states necessary to our survival?

Yes, the experience of higher states of consciousness, or alternate realities — I don’t like the term altered states — is the only way to escape our brains’ destructive programming, fed to us as children by a disgruntled karmic history. Newborns are connected to the divine; war is the result of our programmed disconnection from divine sources.

I am writing a book about alternate realities called From Here to Alternity: A Manual on Ways of Amusing God. On vitamin K, I have experienced states in which I can contact the creators of the universe, as well as the local creative controllers — the Earth Coincidence Control Office, or ECCO. They’re the guys who run the earth and who program us, though we’re not aware of it. I asked them, “What’s your major program?” They answered, “To make you guys evolve to the next levels, to teach you, to kick you in the pants when necessary.”

Because our consensus reality programs us in certain destructive directions, we must experience other realities in order to know we have choices. That’s what I call Alternity. On K, I can look across the border into other realities. I can open my eyes in this reality and dimly see the alternate reality, then close my eyes. and the alternate reality picks up

Can substances like K take one to lower, as well as to higher, states? Could one get stuck in a lower state, and is that a possible explanation for psychosis?

You can get into lower states — rock consciousness, solid-state consciousness, whatever. If people do get stuck there, we would never hear from them, would we? As for so-called psychosis, it’s just an insistence on staying in altered states, in spite of everyone else. Psychotics hang around and play games with everyone around them; it can be rather cruel. Anyone who has worked with them knows there’s a wise and healthy essence back there, and what you have to do is contact it. Of course everyone’s different. Some schizophrenics feel pain; others pretend pain so that they’ll be taken care of.

UCLA psychologist and drug authority Ronald Siegel maintains that the chemical you call K can simulate the near-death experience, proving that the near-death experience is hallucination rather than a foretaste of things on the “other side.” What is your view?

Ron and I totally disagree, though I like him. He is theorizing on the side of the law. With his belief system — that these experiences are all wastebasket stuff — he doesn’t know alternate realities.

My experiences have convinced me that Eastern yoga philosophy is right: that there is a purusha or atman [soul] for each person — one for the planet, one for the galaxy, and so on. As mathematician/philosopher Franklin Merrell-Wolff says in his book The Philosiphy of Consciousness Without an Object, consciousness was first — before the void even. When consciousness got bored and turned in upon itself, becoming conscious of itself, creation began. He/she/it created time, space, energy, matter, male, female — the whole tableau. It all got so complicated that sneaky things may go on beyond its ken.

If you get into these spaces at all, you must forget about them when you come back. You must forget you’re omnipotent and omniscient and take the game seriously so you’ll engage in sex, have children, and participate in the whole human scenario. When you come back from a deep LSD trip or a K trip — or coma or psychosis — there’s always this extraterrestrial feeling. You have to read the directions in the glove compartment so you can run the human vehicle once more. After I first took acid in the tank and traveled to distant dimensions, I cried when I came back and found myself trapped in a body. I didn’t even know whose body it was at first. It was the sadness of reentry. I felt squashed.

Toni (Lilly’s wife) has obviously been a crucial counterpoint to what you once described as the “stainless-steel computer” part of yourself. In your recent books you’ve stressed the importance of what you call the “male-female dyad.” Will you please explain this idea.

That’s the way the universe is constructed. Do you know about the Eleventh Commandment? It says, “Thou shalt not bore God, or He will destroy your universe.” The first step in not boring God is to set up two opposing intellects, male and female, so that neither can tell what the other is thinking. If you totally fused with your mate. it might be a very dull trip.

I love female intelligences. Every single cell in your body has two x chromosomes. Every cell in my body has one x chromosome and a crippled x chromosome, an x chromosome with an arm missing, called a y chromosome. You women are so well balanced with your two x’s. You can be grounded, and do the gardening, and take care of the kids and give them nurture, but we males have got to go out and explore the universe, banging our heads together and shooting one another.

Was it really necessary for you to have the near-death experiences you’ve recounted? Note : Lilly’s NDEs were caused by drugs)

It was for me. It was necessary to frighten the hell out of me, but many other people are just born right and don’t have to struggle as I did. I had a Catholic background, a traumatic childhood — the whole business.

What was it about a Catholic background that you had to “unlearn”?

The whole construct. I’d been taught by Irish Jesuits, who are very clever. They made up multiple layers of rationality for the whole Catholic structure. The nice thing about Catholicism, however, is that it teaches you what to believe. So when you throw it over, you know exactly what you’re throwing over.

I believe in God, but not in the “Catholic God,” who is vengeful. There’s the whole business about guilt, “impure thoughts,” going to hell if you don’t do what the church commands. One way this was solved for me, intellectually if not emotionally, was by reading the “Grand Inquisitor” chapter of Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov in which Christ comes back to Earth. The Grand Inquisitor tells him, “When we saw those miracles in the street, we knew you were back. But this time we’re not giving you any publicity. We’re keeping you in this cell. We know how to run these people now.” That just knocked the church right out of me, and by the time I was finished with Caltech, medical school, and psychoanalysis, that belief system was pretty well cleaned out of me.

Could you elaborate on your concept of programming and “metaprogramming” the biocomputer?

Have you seen the movie Tron? You must, because Tron is us. In it, the computer grabs the character played by Jeff Bridges and takes him inside, making him a program In the computer. The Master Control Program revolts, takes over the computer, and defies the users. So the users send in Tron, which is a program to destroy the Master Control Program that is preaching disbelief in the users.

Tron shows you things that are very, very spiritual. You can think of yourself as a biocomputer or an intelligent terminal, run by a cosmic computer in the Earth Coincidence Control Office. The biocomputer contains certain wired-in survival programs dealing with eating, reproduction, and so on, which lower animals also possess. But when the biocomputer reaches a certain threshold of complexity, there are higher-level programs in the association cortex that permit such things as making models, learning to learn, choice, and so forth. We have short-term choices, but God help you if you go against the Master Control Program. A terminal cannot understand itself, because it lacks sufficient space, but a replica of itself is in the cosmic computer, which can understand it. At the highest level, your true self (the “user” in Tron) is a cosmic game player, with access to an infinite computer — the ECCO computer. That is metaprogramming, self-metaprogramming.

How does one contact God?

In many cases, I didn’t know whether I was taken on a trip by God or by one of His business officers in the outer galaxy. Guides at each level above ours pretend to be God as long as you believe them. When you finally get to know the guide, he says, “Well, God is really the next level up.” God keeps retreating into infinity. I’ve thought that I was in the mind of God — seeing rotating universes, yin and yang, male and female — but perhaps God himself is beyond that.

"Tao Te Ching L'esprit de la vallée, éternel Est appelé le Mystic Femme La porte de la Mystic Femme Est appelé la racine du Ciel et de la Terre Il s'écoule en continu, à peine perceptible L'utiliser; il n'est jamais épuisé"


Have I told you about the “Dust-bowl God”?


No. What is the “Dust-bowl God”?


In my new book I have a theory called the Dust-bowl God. God got bored with this universe and the distribution of intelligence in it. So He made a dust bowl out beyond the galaxies. In this dust cloud, every particle is intelligent; on the atomic level, each particle is as intelligent as a human being. The dust particles made themselves into stars and planets and animals and humans and everybody knew everybody; everything was totally aware of everything around It. Now the problem is, If every particle is equally intelligent and greater assemblages are even more intelligent, what are the traffic rules for relations between, say, humans and elephants? It would be nice to see such a universe, wouldn’t it — the Dust-bowl Universe?


How would it differ from ours?


Right. How would it?

Great Men, Expectation, Meditation, Love, and Levitation (John C. Lilly)


Generally just Being. Nothing in particular, no claims to fame. I like gardening and the sea, nature, art in all forms from poetry to films and everything in between, and being in the company of my family.

Posted in The Shrine of Eris, Uncategorized

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